11.06.2008

H - E - DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS

This image courtesy of Fox News.

Here's one of my favorite images from yesterday's protests against the passing of Proposition 8. Can you imagine the hysteria that would erupt if I were to hold a sign saying, "Go to hell [insert derogatory insult to homosexuals here]!" Just another double standard. This was on Santa Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood, just down the street from the temple. These angry folks even staged a sit-in outside CNN's Los Angeles studio.

Anyway, note to the missionaries: Avoid street contacting on the 3rd Street Promenade, anywhere within the West Hollywood City Limits, and obviously, San Francisco, for awhile. We'll let you know when, if ever, it's safe to go back.

30 comments:

  1. Yeah I saw some people signing up on facebook for "petition to remove lds tax exempt status" and while I'm not mormon all I could think was
    1. its facebook people seriously
    2. They can still vote on propositions so that angle kinda fails
    3. Mormons aren't going to stop being Mormon because of their tax status
    4. Mormons weren't the only group campaigning yes on 8, not by a long shot. I mean Knights of Columbus... 1 million dollars...

    I have my own opinions on the prop, which I voted on, as should have everyone. I understand that this was a very very emotional subject for a lot of people, but Seriously no one ON EITHER SIDE of the argument should be spewing hatred at the other. Besides thats not going to get anyone anywhere.

    I am really sorry you guys are going through this. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the church's stance on things, that isn't a reason to lash out at anyone.

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  2. Um... beware of earthquakes? Argh.

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  3. Do they not realize that the CA membership of the church is about 700,000? And as of right now we are ahead in the votes by about 500,000 - it wasn't all Mormons (and not all Mormons voted yes). But I'm happy about our contribution. We are "one nation under God" and we are preserving His law of marriage of between Man and Women.
    The protests are ridiculous and I think that this issue will take a long time to die down. As for going to He** it seems as though it's getting really crowded so I'll volunteer to go to Heaven. :)

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  4. wow- can you say signs of the Second Coming??

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  5. So when does it become time to abandon ship? Do they realize if we all (those who believe in the sanctity of marriage and that traditional righteousness is good and traditional wickedness is bad) move say to Missouri, that California will fall into the ocean. Just a thought. Does anyone want to go in with me on a bunker in rural somewhere? ;)

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  6. Our prop in AZ passed too. Scary how close it was, but we are glad there are still some supporters in this state.

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  7. This makes me sick to my stomach. I can't believe the hatred that is spewing out of these "gay activists". How can they accuse of hatred and bigotry with a picture like this. I'm speechless really.

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  8. As a Christian Prop 8 No person, I am upset and sorry about all the hatered that is coming out of the woodwork surrounding this prop. Obviously it is not the right solution and we must bring other options to the table. I believe that homosexuality can be born into a person, and I liken it to the unfairness that is an infant born with a terrible disease or disability. Where the sin of homosexuality comes in is exactly where God will judge their hearts on the Day we all stand before Him to be judged. I am appauled and saddened by the hate, and sorry you personally looked it in the eyes, Cristin. God is watching.

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  9. I have a question. I was interested to read in the Bible (New Testament mostly) where it mentions homosexuality. I found a couple of passages. First, in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 -- "Did you know know that the wicked will not inherit the kindgom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexally immoral nor idolaters nor adulters nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kindgom of God." Ok. So I kept reading (while I was at it...) and found in 7:10-11 "To the married I give this command (not I but the Lord): A wife must not seperate from her husband. But if she does, she mst remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husand must not divorce his wife." My question is why are the religious people who are so vehement about "protecting marriage" not trying to outlaw divorce? Why are there not ballot measures, petitions, signs, rallies, and a movment to outlaw divorce? It is God's command to never divorce, just as it is not to commit homosexual acts. Now I know most religious people try not to get a divorce (especially Mormons) but we can't say "well I don't believe in divorce so I wont get one" and then NOT say "well I don't believe in homosexuality so I wont be one." So why the push to outlaw homosexuality but not divorce?

    Then I kept reading. 1 Corinthians is an interesting book! I further found this passage in 1 Corinthians 11:5-6 "And every woman who prays or prophesises with her head uncovered dishonors her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head." I am, of course, wondering why Christians do not cover their heads when they pray? Why is there not a movment in the religious world to cover our heads as Muslims do? Perhaps not on the global scale, such as changing constitutions, but shouldn't those who are quick to judge the lives of others be certain they are at least doing what the Bible says themselves? So why do you work against the rights of homosexuals, but you do not cover your head, or shave it, for prayer purposes as it is clearly ordered in the Bible?

    I moved on to Romans where I found the support for the condemnation of homosexuality here in Romans 1:26-27 "Because of this God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relatiosn for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." I read onward just a few verses, to 2:1-3 "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgmet on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?" Now this sounds a lot to me like we are all being told NOT TO JUDGE. That we are all sinners, and God will be the one to judge our sins in His own time. So how can you justify your judgment of one thing, when you are guilty yourself of sin?

    Now for fun, let's go to Leviticus 18:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable." and 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

    However, if one reads Leviticus, we find that we are not allowed to do lots of things. Such as: have sex while menstruating (Lev. 18:19), while harvesting we are not permitted to reap to the edges of our land, go over our vineyard twice, or pick up anything that has fallen to the ground (Lev. 19:9-10), we must pay our employees immediatly, not wait to pay him for even one day, he must not wait for his pay overnight (Lev. 19:13), we cannot mate different kinds of animals (I'd guess the whole horse-donkey thing applies here... Lev. 19:19), we must not plant 2 kinds of seeds in our field (a garden I'd assume carries the same law. Lev. 19:19), We cannot wear clothing woven of two kinds of material (cotten blend anyone? Lev. 19:19), We cannot eat any meat with the blood still in it (no rare, medium rare, medium steaks!!! Lev. 19:26), We cannot cut our hair at the sides of our heads or clip the edges of our beard (Lev. 19:27), No tattoos (Lev. 19:28), We are to rise in the presence of the aged (Lev. 19:32). The final word of this chapter is "Keep all my decrees and all my laws and follow them. I am the LORD." (Lev. 19:37).

    Now. That'a a lot. And it certainly makes me question - why the outrage for homosexuality and not all these other things??? Why are we not making issues out of ALL OF THESE THINGS? Why do we wear clothing that is made of 2 kinds of material, why do we cut our hair, trim our beards, eat our steak however we please, wait 2 weeks for our paychecks, all without any kind of outrage at all, even though all of these things are outlawed specifically by God?

    Cristin, I don't mean to pick on your specifically, but you have been a big proponent of prop 8 and I am hoping you can help me understand how one goes about deciding which of God's laws are worth fighting over and which are not. I know you have a good readership of Christian readers, and I read your husbands reply to some criticism a while back and enjoyed his intelligent discussion. I am hoping someone can help me get why it is okay to judge homosexuals with the same mouth that we eat bloody meat with, during which we are probably making signs while wearing a cotten blend and after we have had our hair cut but before we have prayed with our uncovered head.

    I wish for honest discussion, I am not trying to be snarky or mean spirited and I hope this does not come across as such.

    Thank you.

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  10. Misty-
    Sounds like you need to meet with the missionaries for some serious question answering. You can refer yourself to meet with them by going to:
    http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/ask-a-question/have-missionaries-contact-me

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  11. What version of the Bible were you reading Misty? There are many different ones. As a member of the LDS faith we refer to King James Version. The interpretations of what you were reading and I would read may be very different from each other. Just curious.

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  12. Version NIV published by Zondervan copyright 2002.

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  13. Thank you Becky, but I am not interested in meeting with Missionaries. I am interested in having a discussion with people who devoted a large part of their time and their lives to this cause in light of the issues I have raised.

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  14. Here are all of the scriptures I quoted above, but here they are from the King James Version. I tried to do them in the same order as I spoke of them in the first comment. And here is the website I got them from, if you'd like to check my work, or for ease of studying or discussion on the internet:

    http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=5072031


    1 Corn. 6:9-10 "[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

    1 Corn 7:10-11 "[10] And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
    [11] But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife."

    1 Corn. 11:5-6 "[5] But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
    [6] For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered."

    Rom. 1:25-27 "[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    [26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    [27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

    Rom. 2:1-3 "[1] Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
    [2] But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
    [3] And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?


    Lev. 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

    Lev. 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

    Lev. 18:19 "Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness."

    Lev. 19:9-10 "And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
    [10] And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God."

    Lev. 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning."

    Lev. 19:19 "Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee."

    Lev. 19:26 "Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times."

    Lev. 19:27 "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."

    Lev. 19:28 "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."

    Lev 19:32 "Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD."

    Lev. 19:37 "Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD."

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  15. Thanks for letting me know Misty. They are slightly different in their messages. You're desire for a discussion I hope is not going to be a "bible bash." You're dotrinal belief vs another's.The reference to the missionaries is not a ploy to become a member of our faith. Part of the LDS missionary effort is to let people know what we believe, and the full time missionaries dedicate 18months to 2 years of their life to that. It is up to each individual to decide what they believe. They would have the necessary time to talk with you at length about these things.

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  16. Sorry about the type-os! I am definitely not a english language pro!

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  17. Misty,

    I would venture to guess that the change from Mosaic Law to the New Law established by Christ has a lot to do with it. The Old Testament focused on outward displays to show devotion, whereas the New Testament moved to inward devotion. That is why you will find teachings from the Savior that say that to look upon a woman and lust after her is just as bad as Adultery. It moved to a greater commitment. But what do I know, I'm just taking a stab at it. And thus I digress.

    Thanks for this piece Cristin. I wish I could say I am shocked, but I'm not. As I've been amongst the people I have noticed that the no on 8 campaign is full of hatred. As I simply stood up for what I believed in, no on 8 supporters consistently badgered me and my family (including 3 small children) with vulgarity, profanity, and an overall sense of hatred. Is it ironic that they called it prop hate, then turned out to be more hateful then any of their accusations about the yes on 8 campaign? Maybe, but then again I never really understood when I was supposed to use the word ironic.

    It's too bad, because there are a lot of great people on the no side, and now there are a bunch of people out there acting like intolerant bigots and giving the no campaign a black eye.

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  18. Cristin--
    let's do something to keep these comments snappy. I mean, I'm reading this right because I'm bored at work, but not even MY work is boring enough to make me read Misty's comments all the way through. And I nearly broke my scroll wheel trying to reach the bottom. Haven't these people ever heard that brevity is the soul of wit? I know I've heard it. Specifically, I remember hearing it in 1988. I was in fifth grade and wore shorts and sweatshirts to school. I brought my lunch from home and commuted by bike (just like I do today, 20 years later [laughing noise]). Well, one day I was sitting in class, probably staring out the window or drawing a map or something, and someone said, "Brevity is the soul of wit." I can't remember exactly who said it, but I have my guesses. These guesses are as follows: Marc DeMarco, who always quoted things he'd heard his grandfather say but he didn't understand, and Debbie Pettit, who was the smartest kid in the class. Anyway, one of them said it, and I heard it, and now I'm remembering it. It's funny how things like that work, and it's even funnier how sometimes it seems like a good idea to talk through that process out loud, or even to write through it, so to speak [laughing noise again!], in the comment section of a blog.
    re: Mormons and hell--Mormon hell is called "Utah." If you live a good life, you get to leave.

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  19. I saw this on the news and it was insane! My question is, since when is 52% of California Mormon?!

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  20. Interesting comments. One thing no one has mentioned is that the Mormon church has a living prophet. He receives revelation directly from the Lord and so when things change as our society progresses (like the way people dress and farm and pay their employees) we are given new instruction. But one of the things the Lord has NEVER given any different instruction on is homosexuality. It's always been wong, and it's still wrong, no matter how many people are for it. In fact, the Lord is so adamant on this point he instructed the prophet to issue this proclamation in 1995 (http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,FF.html).

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  21. Oh, and by the way, I have NEVER turned my back on a friend or family member for being gay, for their religious beliefs, or any other reason but I HAVE had people do so to ME. Will the REAL intolerant, hateful people please step forward.

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  22. Ok. For the sake of brevity, let's just discuss divorce. Clearly, the Bible says to never divorce. And the Mormon Church teaches not to divorce today (right? Correct me if I am wrong, I am not totally up on the current revelations from the Lord). So why, if the goal is to preserve marriage, why do you not come out so strongly against divorce being legal?

    Or even the judgemnt issue, where the Lord clealy says that if you judge someone, then you are just as guilty as they are (ie. judging makes you just as wrong in God's eyes as being homosexual). It is God's job to judge. And so, I ask, why do you think it is okay to make these judgments of people this way? And you might say that God does not want us to turn a blind eye, or condone, something that is wrong, which brings us back to the issue of divorce, and how you can stand by and allow that to happen but you can't stand by and let homosexuality happen.

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  23. Misty -

    Your original question was

    "help me understand how one goes about deciding which of God's laws are worth fighting over and which are not"

    I believe that all of my beliefs are worth fighting for. Voting in a democracy is one of the ways we can "fight." I do not think God intended for us to fight for something we believe in by using hateful signs and offensive tactics like some of the "No on 8" protesters in recent days.

    Now concerning divorce, or any of the other topics you mentioned in your email - the reason Becky said you should meet with the LDS missionaries is because you are asking for clarification about our beliefs. If that isn't an option for you, lds.org has an extensive gospel library. I believe that once you gain an understanding of Mormon beliefs, you'll see that we ARE trying to fight for what we believe. (I say TRY because none of us our perfect. We're all just doing the best we can.)

    Concerning judging, here is a good link -

    Anyway, thanks for the question. I hope that helps somewhat.

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  24. WHen did prop 8 passing all of the sudden become the Mormons fault??? I think this list of facts goes perfectly with the picture in this post! I found this on someone else's blog...
    1. Mormons make up less than 2% of the population of California. There are approximately 800,000 LDS out of a total population of approximately 34 million.

    2. Mormon voters were less than 5% of the yes vote. If one estimates that 250,000 LDS are registered voters (the rest being children), then LDS voters made up 4.6% of the Yes vote and 2.4% of the total Proposition 8 vote.

    3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) donated no money to the Yes on 8 campaign. Individual members of the Church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts and, exercising their constitutional right to free speech, donated whatever they felt like donating.

    4. The No on 8 campaign raised more money than the Yes on 8 campaign. Unofficial estimates put No on 8 at $38 million and Yes on 8 at $32 million, making it the most expensive non-presidential election in the country.

    5. Advertising messages for the Yes on 8 campaign are based on case law and real-life situations. The No on 8 supporters have insisted that the Yes on 8 messaging is based on lies. Every Yes on 8 claim is supported.

    6. The majority of our friends and neighbors voted Yes on 8. Los Angeles County voted in favor of Yes on 8. Ventura County voted in favor of Yes on 8.

    7. African Americans overwhelmingly supported Yes on 8. Exit polls show that 70% of Black voters chose Yes on 8. This was interesting because the majority of these voters voted for President-elect Obama. No on 8 supporters had assumed that Obama voters would vote No on 8.

    8. The majority of Latino voters voted Yes on 8. Exit polls show that the majority of Latinos supported Yes on 8 and cited religious beliefs (assumed to be primarily Catholic).

    9. The Yes on 8 coalition was a broad spectrum of religious organizations. Catholics, Evangelicals, Protestants, Orthodox Jews, Muslims - all supported Yes on 8. It is estimated that there are 10 million Catholics and 10 million Protestants in California. Mormons were a tiny fraction of the population represented by Yes on 8 coalition members.

    10. Not all Mormons voted in favor of Proposition 8. Our faith accords that each person be allowed to choose for him or her self. Church leaders have asked members to treat other members with "civility, respect and love," despite their differing views.

    11. The Church did not violate the principal of separation of church and state. This principle is derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, although it has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court in recent years. The LDS Church is under no obligation to refrain from participating in the political process, to the extent permitted by law. U.S. election law is very clear that Churches may not endorse candidates, but may support issues. The Church as always been very careful on this matter and occasionally (not often) chooses to support causes that it feels to be of a moral nature.

    12. Supporters of Proposition 8 did exactly what the Constitution provides for all citizens: they exercised their First Amendment rights to speak out on an issue that concerned them, make contributions to a cause that they support, and then vote in the regular electoral process. For the most part, this seems to have been done in an open, fair, and civil way. Opponents of 8 have accused supporters of being bigots, liars, and worse. The fact is, we simply did what Americans do - we spoke up, we campaigned, and we voted.

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  25. Heather - Thanks for posting that great list! A Catholic Bishop in Sacramento released
    this statement
    today. I thought it was also excellent.

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  26. Misty, if you're still here, there is a talk by an LDS leader on divorce that might clarify our beliefs on the subject. The link is at http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=ec21b5658af22110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1

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  27. Cristin,

    the LDS church, on it's official website has said “No one on any side of the question should be... subject to erroneous information.

    Please consider that your church doesn’t want you spreading lies as you defend your position.

    Above, Heather "found something on someone else’s blog" and reprints it here. You thanked her for it. The list includes the item below:

    "3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) donated no money to the Yes on 8 campaign. Individual members of the Church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts and, exercising their constitutional right to free speech, donated whatever they felt like donating."

    From the CA Secretary of State Website of Yeson8 donors:

    CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS SALT LAKE CITY UT / 84150
    Amount - $2,078.97
    Date - 10/27/2008

    CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS SALT LAKE CITY UT / 84150
    Amount - $2,864.21
    Date - 11/2/2008

    The Church itself made two donations on two different dates (see above). Since I know it is not your intention to mislead, please correct the false information printed above and please ask Heather not to reprint something that is demonstrably false.

    Ken C

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  28. Hey everybody...Ken C's back. Welcome back buddy!! It seems as though you have been misinformed on those contrubtions you listed. I looked them up too. There are names attached to those of members and they stated to be members of the LDS church but not directly a contribution from church headquarters.
    Thanks again for your happy contribution to Cristin's blog.

    Is everyone ready to move on yet?

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  29. I think the point is why are people singling out mormons? why not hispanics and catholics and other christian denominations that played a huge roll in this? also this same bill also passed in florida and I can tell you from experience- I lived in Florida and there are very few church members there.

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